04-30-2008, 10:39 PM
1.This interview is with the mysterious Curt Covert of Smirk & Dagger Games. Let us start with your company's logo, Curt. Who came up with the concept for the Smirk & Dagger Games logo, and also, who was the artist that actually created it?
The answer to both is… me. Justin Brunetto (my long time friend and partner) and I are both graphic artists by trade. I’m a Creative Director for a major marketing firm during the day and game inventor by night.
The logo and the name of the company itself were direct outgrowths of the concept for the company and my undying love of games that have a fun ‘screw factor’. We wanted to stand for something and to set ourselves apart from other companies so that when gamers went to the shelf, looking for a new game, they would know what kind of game experience they were going to have – just because it came from Smirk and Dagger. Graphically then, the logo had to be a little edgy in regards to the type, black and white for thematic reasons – and the icon, “Smirky”, is a cartoon self portrait of myself (in the very simplest of terms) as I smile gleefully, planning someone’s in-game demise.
2.How long has Smirk & Dagger games been in business, and what was it like when you first took the plunge into starting your own game company?
Five years, believe it or not, and it has been an immense undertaking with a huge learning curve. The deck (pardon the pun) is hugely stacked against new companies coming into the market -and surviving. I’ve been either very smart or very lucky thus far and likely there’s been a generous blend of both. But I have always been determined, focused and mindful of what I can learn from others to improve.
Hex Hex was our first product and was developed almost in the same breath as coming up with the name of the company. It was the simplest, purest expression of the company’s founding principle. We took it to game conventions locally to see if other people liked it. We listened, massaged slightly and tightened the game to the point where we thought we might have a product people would buy.
To prove it to ourselves, we went to our first Gencon armed with 100 copies of the game that we printed black and white on a parchment paper at the local Kinkos print shop. A very inexpensive method of testing the waters. We were literally ‘nobodys’ with a hand-made game in a sea of professionally crafted games and mega companies. We didn’t even have our own booth, but demoed at a retailer’s booth. And we watched as our demo excited people, made them laugh as they nailed their friends, and sold over 70 of the games. We were hooked – and decided we had a viable product.
Of course, the ‘big plunge’ was investing in printing the game. I had to take a second mortgage to do it. I had to convince my wife it was worth it (I’m not sure she’s convinced yet). My mistake was that I printed too many to start (a common mistake) and had no established means to distribute the game (a deadly mistake). It sat in a warehouse for 6 months as I nibbled my nails anxiously, waiting for the Gama Trade Show and the ability to meet with retailers and distributors for the first time.
Honestly, the company could have collapsed right there, with 5000 games crushing me financially. But fate intervened. I got a call from Aldo Ghiozzi of Impressions, a consolidator for small press game companies here in the US, who offered to represent me. It meant that at the Gama Trade show I could tell people I was fully distributed with any distributor they already used. All he had to do was add me to his inventory list and the switch was flipped. I was instantly available – not just in the US, but worldwide! It was a big sigh of relief and retailers responded. Distributors took notice of the major pre-orders that we worked hard to garner at the show. Fans quickly supported us and before I knew it, Hex Hex was nominated for card game of the year in the Origins Awards.
It was a crazy, mind-spinning start to be sure.
I think I may have answered the question in there somewhere.
3.Of all of Smirk & Dagger Games' various game products, which one if your personal favorite - and why?
It is almost always my latest creation that I am most excited about. And in this case, it may be truer than ever. Cutthroat Caverns is probably the best work we’ve ever done and it keeps getting better as we build upon it. Partly because it does a wonderful dance between cooperative play and our signature backstabbing style, partly because it has the richest gaming experience of all our games and lastly because it is just beautiful – the art, design, mechanics all come together wonderfully. I take pride in the fact that it takes a very ‘tried and true’ theme and delivers a game wholly unlike any other. In fact, fans, retailers and distributors have a hard time classifying it. It feels like an RPG, plays like a board game, and is most certainly a card game. The uniqueness of the game paired with the ‘moment’ we’ve captured (that moment when you first looked around your roleplaying table and thought… OMG, the other party members are more a threat than the monsters!) easily make it my favorite of our children (just don’t tell the others).
4.What is the single most difficult obstacle to overcome, when it comes to designing a new game from scratch?
Ours is a very unique industry. The hobby game enthusiast is a different animal than casual, mainstream game players. The casual game player would rather not read a rule book at all, where hobby gamers live and die by finding opportunities between the lines of every rule written. Designing a clear, concise, balanced game that doesn’t intimidate more casual players but still delivers all the detail the hardcore guys demand – that’s tough, especially given the fact that many of my games have ‘ripple effect’ rules. Catching everything in playtesting is near impossible and people crawl out of the woodwork with lots of stuff we never imagined. As a result, every time I reprint a game, I try to improve upon the rules and materials to address these oversights and make the product even stronger. You will find that true when we reprint Cutthroat Caverns later this year. No big changes, but a bigger rulebook and some clearer wordings on cards. (we will post the new rules and addenda on-line as well)
Then, I think I approach game design much differently than most designers do. It should be a surprise to no one that the internal math of the game and structure of the mechanics, while critically important, is not where I start the design process. Honestly, at the outset, it is not even a focus. Instead, I look for a compelling theme – a story, an idea, a feeling I want players to experience, a moment in time I want to capture… then I find mechanics that suit it and try to build in the math and balance into it. I think it is fair to say of my games that they easily deliver on what I really focus on – a particularly rich and interactive game experience. It is probably equally fair to say that master strategists and math doctorates may find my games a bit hollow, with Cutthroat being the closest thing yet to pleasing them. I probably won’t be designing the next game to rival chess (which remains one of my favorite games BTW) but when you walk through a convention hall, my table may be the most boisterous by far. To me, that level of excitement and fun is the measure of the game’s success. I can walk away knowing that they’ll all have stories to tell about the game the next day.
5.Which of your games has proven to be the most popular with gamers, and why do you think that it strikes the right chord with them?
Wow. That really depends on the gamer. I would say we have a fairly twisted and passionate following on each of our major products. Hex Hex seemed to fill a need as a party game or game night filler with other reports that live role players were taking it out as an in-game tavern amusement. It plays so quickly and with so much energy around the table, it is really well suited to all those occasions. Cutthroat Caverns is quickly building itself into our flagship product for all the reasons I mentioned previously. And for some odd reason, Run for your Life, Candyman! continues to delight people of all ages. Here in the US, the game that it parodies is literally every child’s first board game. The original game is so sweet and simple (and as an adult, tedious) that our parody, with its sugar-frosted combat and the ripping off of gingerbread limbs from opponents, is both shocking and immediately engaging. We use real gingerbread men as score sheets at conventions with frosting to mark damage and it is always one of our biggest events. One woman based her whole wedding reception party around the game, with a game at each table and a sculpture and character standees for the head table, which we were happy to create for her.
But the real answer is this… I think our games overall strike a chord with something in the human psyche. The Germans have a word for it, SCHADENFREUDEN. It means the enjoyment of another’s misfortune. In regular society, we all have to behave a certain way and be good citizens (and thank goodness). Games can let us act out our baser qualities, in a safe, fun environment. We can ‘be bad’, all in good fun. There is a real ‘juice’ to it that I think appeals to us all… or at least to the people who like our games.
The other thing is that our games all try to deliver an emotional experience rather than a true intellectual challenge. I think there is a place for many styles of gaming (and I love them all) but ours do one far better, with a high degree of player interaction designed into game play.
6. Can you give our readers a brief description of Smirk & Daggers
Games' main game products?
Hex Hex is essentially a mean-spirited, quick playing game of Hot Potato – with lots of twists and turns as players deflect Hexes (many time multiple copies) around the table.
Dead Hand Chaos Poker is a blend of Poker and Russian Roulette. A final card is drawn after the showdown, that may ‘kill’ the high hand.
Run for your Life, Candyman is a parody of a classic children’s board game with high-spirited cookie combat.
Cutthroat Caverns is a dungeon-delving themed card game where players must work together to survive, but if they don’t betray one another sufficiently, they won’t be able to win.
7. Will Smirk & Dagger Games be at any upcoming game fairs or conventions?
We always attend Gencon every year and will be returning to Origins this year (there is a joke in their offices that they changed their scheduled dates this year to accommodate my schedule). We also visit a number of local cons in our area, but the sad truth is that our appearances are very limited. I’ve got a full time day job and only so much vacation time to spend. Plus, my family is another priority in my life and I need time for them as well. At some point though, I’d love to cross the Atlantic for some of the big Euro cons as well.
8. Is your name really Curt Covert?
Ha ha! Yes, that is my real name. But, it is pretty apt, don’t you think? I once had a burgeoning game designer ask if he could call his new spy-themed game, “Stop Curt Covert!”, where my namesake was a master spy. I’m not sure it ever saw print.
9. Where is Smirk & Dagger Games' headquarters located?
In my house, in Sandy Hook, Connecticut.
Ummm… I mean, in a secret lair, deep beneath stately Covert manor, where we toil endlessly for your twisted, backstabbing pleasure.
10. What are Instigators, and who gets credit for coming up with that concept for your company?
The Instigators are a group of volunteers who love our games and enjoy sharing them with others at their local game shops, gaming clubs and conventions – where we simply can’t be. They are a very valued group of enthusiastic supporters. While I certainly decided to put the group together as part of the company’s outward face, I can’t take credit for the concept. I mentioned earlier that I try to learn as much as I can from others. Steve Jackson Games (MIB) and Looney Labs (Lab Rabbits) both have some of the best volunteer network programs I’ve seen and I modeled the Instigators after them. One day, I hope to grow the program to be as successful as theirs have been.
11. Since Smirk & Dagger Games shamelessly promotes the concept that “games are a lot more fun when you can stab a friend in the back”, does your company ever catch any flak for that approach to game design by people who think that it is wrong to stab a friend in the back?
Sure. Some people don’t enjoy ‘take that’ games as much as we do, but each to their own taste. You can’t please everyone – and who would want to try? I’d rather be honest about the kind of experience we offer and let those who appreciate it seek us out.
12. What prompted or inspired you to begin designing games in the first place?
I’m an ‘idea guy’. So, it’s a natural way of expressing my creativity. But I suppose it all started by creating new cards and expansions for games I had bought and loved. Don’t we all? I penned card ideas for Wiz-War and Magic the Gathering, and created full blown expansions for Dungeon Quest and Star Trek Red Alert. It was after sinking a year and a half into publishing pdf expansions for Red Alert on-line that someone finally asked me, “why don’t you make your own games?” I hadn’t ever considered it before then.
13. Why did you decide to make Cutthroat Caverns a dice-less game, if you were going for a RPG feel?
This was one of my first design mandates – no dice. Why? Quite simply, that game exists. I think this is where many RPG themed card games fall short. They try to be the same game, an RPG but with cards. My goal was to create something unique unto its own. It is very familiar in theme, but playing it is a unique gaming experience.
In a similar vein, there are no unique abilities or differences between the characters in the base game. This was also a bone of contention, even internally at S&D and has continued with fans. I held my ground on this point because, even though customization of characters and class abilities are the meat of RPG gaming, I wasn’t making an RPG game. I wanted the base game to be more a pure card game. I never wanted to hear, “oh, the Dwarf is the best character. I’ll only play if I can be the Dwarf and be able to use his X ability.” My game wasn’t about whether you had a sword, magic powers or anything else. My game was about the mean things people will do to each other to win – while having to work together at the same time to live. It is about the players first, the characters second.
To me, this is where the role of expansions come into play. The base game is the base game. Expansions can play with and augment the core game, like our first Deeper & Darker, gives each character an ability that make them unique. This year’s expansions add events and power Relics as well as actual RPG style adventure modules to introduce the new creatures and mechanics in a very rich and exciting way. The adventures are ‘programmed’ so there is no game master and are just one shots to fill an evening. Then all the stuff you just discovered rolls into the larger core game. Next year, new characters will be introduced that will be drastically different from each other, with varying hand sizes, unique abilities, etc..
14. What kind of play testing process does Smirk & Dagger Games use, when it comes time to play test games under development?
We take it to the public. Local gaming groups, conventions large and small, trade shows where we get retailer input on the game and packaging, you name it. Working in a vacuum is death. We get the design where we think it needs to be and then we let people tell us what’s wrong. We listen to everything, selectively adjust what makes sense and try it again.
15. "Run for your life, Candyman!" is a game produced by Smirk & Dagger Games. The recommended age for playing this game is 12 years old and up. If kids younger than 12 end up playing this game, do you think that there's any chance that they will be scarred for life?
Ha! No, in fact my 8 year old played it and loved it. The 12 and up recommendation on the box was meant to do two things: clearly communicate that we intended the audience on this game to be more adult – and to not have the game confused for a ‘kiddie’ game, in particular the game it parodies. Nobody wants to upset Hasbro. We did all we could to avoid any foreseeable problems.
16. Who did the artwork for the "Dead Hand Chaos Poker box?
Ah, a very good friend, Robert Mag. (http://robertmag.com/) He is responsible for creating all the wonderful Gothic illustrations for the game. Then, the graphic design of putting it all together was mine. Robert and his wife, Roxanne, also built and designed the look of the website.
Let me also highlight the art in the Cutthroat Caverns line, which comes from nearly 50 artists from across the globe and is as diverse and rich as you’ll see in a game. I encourage everyone to check out the galleries of all these talented folks through our website links.
17. I noticed on the Smirk & Dagger Games website (http://www.smirkanddagger.com/) that the game Cutthroat Caverns has several expansion packs available for it. Were these expansion packs necessary, because of a critical flaw or shortcoming in the design of the basic Cutthroat Caverns game? Or what, exactly, motivated or necessitated your company to go the expansion pack route?
I may have answered this in part above – but not completely. The base game is exactly what I wanted it to be (though our upcoming reprint will expand the rule book and clarify some language). The expansions have several reasons for being, not least of which was we thought there was a market for them.
But, in game terms, each brings something new to the game and helps enrich the game experience or extend the replay value. The game hinges on the Encounters you face and it is far more fun to have new creatures to figure out and explore than the same 25 all the time, even when you only play with 9 at a time. By the end of August/September, the creature pool will be 70 strong.
I should note here that nearly half of the new Encounters in the next two expansions, Relics & Ruin and Tombs & Tomes, were created by fans in our ‘Create an Encounter’ contest. Some very innovative thinking that I know people will love. This is the cream of the crop of the nearly 100 entries we had – and of course, lovingly massaged and balanced back at our shop.
What is great about the new Event deck is that it will keep even the encounters you know and love fresh as new situational effects come into play – with tougher challenges and rewards. These will be introduced in Relics & Ruin.
As you have heard, there had been pressure to add character abilities. I was happy to do so – as an addition to the game in our first expansion, Deeper & Darker, but not as the ‘core’ essence of what the game was. And I was delighted to see that they did not unbalance the game.
Overall, the desire is to evolve and refresh the game without weighing it down. Expansions are the perfect way to achieve that. But there is a limit and we hope not to exceed it.
18. For someone considering buying one of your company's games, but who might still be on the fence about it, what would you say to them to persuade them to go ahead and make the purchase? Also, which of your company's game products would you recommend to someone who has never played any Smirk & Dagger game, before?
Even at conventions, we never hard sell our products. In truth, they largely sell themselves. I only ever encourage them to try a demo. On average, a good 70% of people who try our games, buy them – or has a friend who did. As to which game to start with, try the one that strikes a chord in you when you read the box. I try to describe the experience as accurately as I can. That is usually the tipping point.
19. Are there any tips or advice that you can offer to someone who might be thinking about designing their first game, or perhaps considering starting their own game company?
OOOF! That question could fill a book. Here’s the top line:
Game Designers:
1.Playtest, playtest, playtest. And NOT with people you know.
2.Develop a thick skin and don’t take criticism personally, take it as a means to make what you have even better.
3.Don’t recreate products that exist, but find familiar elements that are interesting, a theme that captivates by just hearing it and combine them in new and compelling ways. Having a slice of the familiar helps a game company and the consumer say, “Hmmm… that’s for me.” But a retread of an idea that is entirely too familiar leaves no reason to want to buy it.
4.Remember that your game is also a product. Your idea needs to be sold. Create a sales hook that you can say in one sentence that gets a company or a gamer interested.
Future Game Companies:
1.Think about licensing your game to an existing company first. That way, you’ll not risk vast amounts of money.
2.Creating a company means having more than one product. You will be in it for the long haul. You’ll need one game per year as an absolute minimum.
3.Do the research on what it takes to run a company and what you’ll need to succeed.
4.If you are still considering it after that, you probably didn’t do enough research. Do it again. Ask the owners of companies like me.
5.If no one can talk you out of it, you will probably end up being a game company, but do yourself a favor and listen and learn so you can avoid the pitfalls that will financially break you. Ask other game companies, industry professionals, retailers, distributors… the lot.
6.Never lose sight that it is a business. Make all your decisions based on that fact. Only consider printing games that have a broad enough target audience to sell sufficient volume.
7.Understand that it will take an enormous investment of cash and every single moment of your spare time. Understand too, that you will lose money your first three years, break even in years three to seven and only become an overnight success in year ten – if you’re lucky and smart. And if all of that still sounds good to you, know that I’ve found it a very rewarding journey. Not financially yet, but personally. I love it.
And here’s a few words of wisdom for everyone… Be honest, stay determined, and know that the harder you try, the luckier you’ll be.
20. Other than games produced by Smirk & Dagger Games, what are some of your personal favorite games to play that are produced by other game companies, and why, specifically, do you like those particular games so much?
Tom Jolly’s Wiz-War: I credit this fun beer and pretzels game with being an inspiration for my company and our game style. Out of print – but find a copy. It’s awesome.
Lunch Money: Love the dark images, fun and gritty.
Robo Rally: Just plain fun and I enjoy spatial relationships.
Magic the Gathering: Long time fan, since Revised. God, everything about it. Genius.
Chess: Pure strategy.
Dungeon Twister: great two player game, lots of strategy.
Star Trek: Red Alert and Disc Wars: fun mechanics, great use of theme.
D&D: wonderful creative outlet for DM and for the players. Can’t get more interactive than that. But man, does it soak up the hours.
Just to name a few.
21. On average, how much gaming do you do over the course of a week's time?
One of the problems with being a one man or two man shop. Too little free time for playing stuff you aren’t currently testing. But I work from roughly 9pm to 12am keeping all the gears moving. I try to move the nut forward an inch every day.
22. If someone is interested in games produced by Smirk & Dagger Games, where can they purchase them from, and how much do they cost?
We have distribution in the UK and other parts of Europe, so head to your local game shop. If they don’t carry it, I know Esdevium is a distributor that can get stores the games for you. I’m not sure what prices retailers set, but our MSRP for all our games is $30 USD or less. That may be impacted by the fact that they are imports in Europe.
23. On a personal note, what are some of your favorite foods and beverages that help to get you in the right mood and mindset to design games?
Salsa and Corn Chips with a frosty brew. There is no payday here at Smirk and Dagger, so this fine repast is considered our ‘salary.’
24. On the Smirk & Dagger Games website, it says that Smirk & Dagger Games is not accepting game submissions. Why is that, since you guys do produce games, after all?
True enough. I’m a designer first, and a publisher second. I love the act of creation, and it is the reason I started the company, to begin with. At the moment, I can only produce one or two games a year, and they have all been games I’ve designed. I suppose, if I get big enough and can afford to publish more titles than I can reasonably create myself, I would consider it. But, I’m not there yet.
25. Are there any new games in the works at Smirk & Dagger Games that you can share some tidbits about with Flagship magazine's readers?
Hmmm… other than the new stuff for Cutthroat, I think everything else is a bit too early to discuss. But I’ll let you know as we get closer.
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Thanks. It was a lot of fun.
Ummm… You don’t mind if I back out of your office, do you? I have a thing about turning my back on people. ; )